Comments on Adventures of an Orthodox Mom: Fast or Feast...Orthodoxy and Thanksgiving

Hi Sylvia,I know this is a bit late but I happened...

2012-02-18T05:06:51.394-05:00

Hi Sylvia,I know this is a bit late but I happened to read your article on thanksgiving.I'm Greek-Australian and live in Greece.My sister has 5 kids and reads your blog in Greece and she told me about your atricles.I happened to be in America for vacation during Thanksgiving.I lived with family friends who also are Orthodox.
On thanksgiving I told them that I am fasting and that I don't eat meat or any dairy products and unfortunately they started telling me because Im fasting it's like I'm being rude to the other person that is serving me food by not eating meat and because I'm fasting it doesn't mean that you are better than everyone else and that even the Bishops in America eat meat on this day and all Orthodox people in America.I answered and said that I don't want to eat during Xmas lent and want to follow lent according to the church and fathers of the church.They told me that as the Church of Greece allows fish on October 28 and March 25, that's how the American church allows meat on Thanksgiving.I also answered and said that fish isn't the same as meat.
Anyway,I did get upset because they did not respect me for what I believe(even though I respected what they were doing and didn't say anything) and I thought that all Orthodox Americans were like this, but reading your article I was relieved and happy to find out that not all Orthodox people are like that in America. I was wondering if you know any articles or links in English about fasting?

I was glad you discussed this issue. Thank you. I...

2011-12-06T21:25:24.213-05:00

I was glad you discussed this issue. Thank you. I would like to add some random thoughts. When I lived far from any orthodox people, I would just say if asked "I am not eating for religious reasons" NO ONE had any problems. They will prepare things with oil intead of butter and they tried to accomodate my fast.
I also want to say that there are so many people that fast as vegetarians or vegans during Thankgiving......
And one more thing..... I think the first Thankgiving dinner had higher probability including fish than stuffed turkey... There are many ways to give thanks.... As Orthodox we give thanks with every service, prayer. Especially with Holy Eucharist (Ευχαριστια) at every Divine Liturgy. In the Bible you see that fasting was a given. It is hard, it is a struggle,and only with God's grace it can be accomplished.....
May we have St. Nicholas blessing in our struggles.

Bopyoke, It's always ok to share, regardless ...

2011-12-05T20:02:02.168-05:00

Bopyoke,

It's always ok to share, regardless of how "late". :)

I agree with your saying some people, "following the rules, like a robot", and others "it is just another law that doesn't really mean anything". But I think we can agree that there is another category of people, that not everyone falls into one of those two categories, right? Not everyone follows the laws like a robot, or disregards them altogether. There are people who respect the laws of God and do their best to follow them out of obedience to God and in a struggle for their salvation, because they love God.

What your father said is very true. They are not meant to just be done. They are to be done through repentance for the healing of our souls. And that is what fasting is right? Medicine for our souls, excercise for our spirit? In order to cleanse and strengthen us.

You said, "If we fast, go to confession, or pray without understanding this...then they are lost on us, and we gain nothing." I couldn't agree more. We should do these things and pray for Christ to enlighten us to understand them. But we must DO them, right? Numerous holy fathers have said to keep praying and fasting, even if you don't understand or want to and through our persistence and struggle God will slowly help us to understand and earn His grace.

Again, my whole point of this post was to respond to those criticizing people who fast. If we choose to fast, that is OUR choice. We should not be judged for it, nor should we be accused of being judgmental or prideful or hypocritical. We did not display our fast before others. They did. They brought up how we fast. And then they mocked us for it. Where is the love in that??

There MUST be rules, and there must also be exceptions sometimes. Which also applies to the head covering issue. And the issue of women wearing pants, and and and. These are all matters that should be decided on individual levels. No one is better for simply "doing" any of these things. Or not, for that matter. What matters is what is in our hearts. And many of our saints have also said that our outward appearance is a reflection of our soul. So...

So what is one to do? Find a good spiritual father and follow his advice. Mind their own business and not be scandalized with others who appear to be trying harder, or not as hard, as themselves. If we would just understand and that everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses; their own struggle. We must all FIGHT for our souls to the best of our ability.

St. Kosmas Aitolos said, "Life is spiritual warfare, if you're not fighting, you're losing." We each know if we are truly fighting or simply justifying a guilty conscience. The Scripture says that He will vomit the lukewarm when He comes again. Let He who knows our hearts be the only Judge.

Nancy, You're really misinterpreting what I s...

2011-12-05T19:23:20.592-05:00

Nancy,

You're really misinterpreting what I said. No one is saying not invite others to their table. In my post, I specifically said, "Thanksgiving ion today's society is more about sharing a special day with loved ones and giving thanks for all of God's blessings...the fact that there is no meat or dairy on my late does not offend or tempt or anger anyone, the same way their plates full of turkey and fixin's does not offend, tempt or anger me!"

Did you not read the part of the article that I was responding to called people who do fast, "hypocrites because of their own guilty conscience...trying to justify themselves..."?? Why are you making it sound like I am judging people who don't fast? The whole point of this post was to respond to people judging the people who do!

What you said in your comment was my point exactly, though somehow it's being used in an entirely different way in your last comment. My ENTIRE point was that we should encourage eachother to do our best, not to give up even trying. To mind our own business and let people fast however they want, not to rip them apart for trying struggling. To love eachother regardless of our spiritual state and enjoy a beautiful day of Thanksgiving together. To fight as hard as we each could individually, and to only worry about what was on our own plate. But somehow you took none of that from what I wrote.

Why is it when people try to be strict with themselves, they're accused of being extreme and judgmental? But another person can lash out, calling his brethren names and accuse them of mocking God by keeping His commandments, and not even be acknowledged? How did that not bother you at all?

You are right. We will have to agree to disagree on this.

Forgive me for whatever offended you so much in my post, that was not my intention. My intent was to defend myself and others with the same beliefs against those who verbally attacked us.

bopyoke, you say some really wonderful things and ...

2011-12-05T10:47:52.426-05:00

bopyoke, you say some really wonderful things and reminders.

I think I have a different interpretation about what is encouraging. I personally don't find encouragement for something I struggle with by seeing how well others can do it. I don't begrudge peoples success or wish them failure! I just mean it is not something that encourages me to do better myself.

Encouragement for me comes when I am with other people who struggle the same as I or from people who will still smile and invite me to their table and reassure me and comfort me to just keep doing my best and to tell me to NOT look at how well they are doing but just do the best I can. Maybe this is just me personally and other people are different and would find encouragement.

This is a very interesting discussion on which I g...

2011-12-03T20:56:35.427-05:00

This is a very interesting discussion on which I guess I am a tad late. But I wanted to share, if thats ok.

I have been told two things: one is that we should always fast no matter what, the other from my parish priest at the time, "If someone offers you something to eat that is not fasting, take it with love, without complaining." And so, as you can see it gets very confusing.

Either way, I feel that many people in the church get the wrong idea about fasting in general. For some its all about "following the rules, like a robot" for others "it is a just another law that doesn't really mean anything". It becomes an issue of contention, and the meaning and purpose of it is lost.

As my father says (he is also a priest, who you may have read his blogs,) "Fasting, like other things perscribed by the church, are not meant to be done, just to be followed. If we do that we miss the point. The point is that the church perscribes these things, like medicines to heal our hearts, and bring us closer to Christ."

How many of us daily, weekly monthly, or even yearly....truly look at the state of our hearts? If we did, we would find a whole mess of things, that we never even knew were there as we go through our everyday lives. The church gives us confession, fasting, prayer, almsgiving and so on, so that we might look at our hearts and try to heal the brokeness with Christ's help.

If we fast, go to confession, or pray without understanding this...then they are lost on us, and we gain nothing.

I agree that we should never judge our brothers and sisters... (I actually recently read a horrible hateful discussion on women covering their heads in church, it nearly made me cry! The things people said to each other were so hateful!) but I also agree that we should help our brothers and sisters in the church by encouraging them down the hard path, with love and guidence not with just "follow this rule, the Church says so" but by showing them how these things are good for their hearts and souls.

Love is the only way. We should be neither extreme, too pushy nor too passive. Both create issues, that I have seen in my father's church. One creates fighting, the other allowance of bad things to happen. We have to take the middle way. Love, love love!

I do just want to share that we belong to the OCA ...

2011-11-30T21:21:06.355-05:00

I do just want to share that we belong to the OCA and the Diocese of the West and it has been my understanding that Bishop Benjamin and Bishop Tikhon before gave permission to not keep the fast on Thanksgiving. I personally don't have a problem with this because I have read and seen how the church applies church law for the good of the people and not just to be lawful. I appreciate that because my background comes from very legalistic churches.

Sylvia, I get what your saying and disagree as w...

2011-11-30T21:17:32.408-05:00

Sylvia,

I get what your saying and disagree as well. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Nancy, I understand how you feel but I disagree.....

2011-11-30T16:06:41.061-05:00

Nancy,

I understand how you feel but I disagree.. These matters are to be kept private on a personal level, not on the level of the Church itself. If this were the case, there would be no reserved periods or rules for fasting, everyone would fast when/how they felt best.

It is not like you say, what "one" church does, is between them and their priest. What one church does, we are all supposed to do. That's the difference between our faith and others. We are all united as one. We all have the same laws. To give permission to one person to bend the rules is one thing. To direct an entire congregation to do something that is against Church law as a whole, is an entirely different matter. Forget the fact that is was written so harshly and innacurately!

There is a time for silence and a time to speak up. When the laws of the Church are being compromised and people who follow them are being slandered and mocked, I believe that makes it time to speak up. What you see as retaliation, I see as defending. Orthodoxy has been preserved by much blood and sweat for thousands of years by defenders of the Faith. We are ALL called to do the same.

Sylvia, I guess I feel that what one church does...

2011-11-30T14:36:54.391-05:00

Sylvia,

I guess I feel that what one church does is what they do and it's between their congregation, priest, bishop and God. I feel we should be silent.

If we feel we need to voice our concern it could be brought up silently to the bishop or someone else appropriate.

I spent many years being a Protestant and I saw how all the public arguing about what the bible says and what God says tore people and congregations apart.

If other people are looking at our plate and making comments than it is best to be silent because that is between them and God. To retaliate even in defense I think is not wise.

In particular when I became Orthodox I was under the impression that people did not share what they did or did not do during the fast except within their immediate family and with their priest. Also, almsgiving was to be silent as well. So, I am just surprised to hear people discussing about the "do's" and "don'ts" of fasting.

The dangers of these discussions is that there are people with health issues and family issues and spiritual issues and all sorts of complicated issues and that is another reason I feel it to be wise to just be silent on this topic and allow individual people and their priests and bishops to figure out the details.

Human beings are naturally comparison beings. So, yes we do all fast together but the specifics of that does not need to be shared. We can silently share the fasting time together. If a priest tells his congregation that they do not recognize Thanksgiving Day as a fast day than that is between that priest, his bishop and that congregation. We should just continue to do what our conscience says and follow our own priest and bishop. If our own church is doing something we disagree with than we would talk to our priest about it.

As usual you have given me a lot to think about, t...

2011-11-30T14:19:25.850-05:00

As usual you have given me a lot to think about, thank you. Right now I have permission to do what I can but as the only Orthodox in my family and still living at home I try to err on the side of least conflict with my family (the Nativity season has enough for me right now) but it makes a lot of sense later for when I have my own home/family.

If you think of it would you mind messaging me your and your family's favorite lenten recipes? No rush because I'm sure you're incredibly busy but if you have a bit of time I would love them.

Yes, Rodian, may the Lord help us with all things ...

2011-11-30T07:41:46.749-05:00

Yes, Rodian, may the Lord help us with all things we will face in these times!

Nancy, I agree we should be very careful in our j...

2011-11-30T07:33:45.569-05:00

Nancy,

I agree we should be very careful in our judgements. Was the article I posted the excerpt of passing judgement? I am not judging anyone and agree that everyone should follow the advice of their spiritual father. But, the Church has designated this time as a period of fasting. I have never touched on this subject, in the four years that I've had this blog, because there was no reason. However, if article like the one I mentioned are going to be posted in church bulletins, mocking people who follow the instruction of the Church, than I will not be silent about it. Individual priests, dioceses, or whatever may decide it's ok for people to break the fast, but that is an INDIVIDUAL decision, not one made on behalf of the Church as a whole. And being that we are not Catholic, and do not believe in the infallibility of our hierarchs, that leaves room for error. Just as we seek out the best doctors for our bodies when we are ill, we must also seek out the best physicians foe our souls, always making sure what they prescribe is the same as Christ and His Church does.

You said "It really does add a burden To people who struggle with the fast to hear others talking About how they are accomplishing the fast even during rough times." But, that shouldn't discourage people, it should encourage them! An important part of struggling, is to surround yourself with people who are trying to attain the same things. We help eachother, struggle, not stay complacent! Now, if someone has health issues or other issues of some sort an they CAN'T fast, that is an entirely different matter and is not what I'm talking about at all in this post. But, to tell people it's ok to not even try, is terrible.

We should certainly not be looking at our brother's plate, but people have been staring at them. The ones with no meat on them. Which is why that strike should have never been posted in a bulletin and sent to every member of the parish.

I think we should be careful in our judgments. One...

2011-11-30T01:21:35.726-05:00

I think we should be careful in our judgments. One can be just as prideful keeping the fast as those who do not. It is my opinion that somethings should just not be discussed and how we keep the fast or not keep the fast is something we keep between ourselves or our personal family, our priest and God. It really does add a burden to people who struggle with the fast to hear others talk about how they are accomplishing the fast even during tough times. Isn't it said during lent to not look at our brothers plate.

I agree completely. I live in Australia so we don&...

2011-11-28T05:41:04.051-05:00

I agree completely. I live in Australia so we don't celebrate Thanksgiving, but it relates to me for other social gatherings. Your article described exactly what I think on the topic. Well done & thank you for your blog. I always look forward to reading it.

Yesterday was the Gospel about the rich man asking...

2011-11-28T03:24:44.418-05:00

Yesterday was the Gospel about the rich man asking our Lord what he should do to attain eternal life, and the Lord said to completely follow Him he must give up all his possessions. The rich man went away sad because he could not do it. The Gospel is a good reminder for us about the Nativity Fast--that we give something up to follow Him. It is not easy to do so, as we see in the rich man, but the Lord said that it is not impossible (in his answer to Peter); for God, everything is possible, so we must pray to Him to help us in keeping the fast.

Marfa, I completely agree. And I might private me...

2011-11-27T17:01:25.364-05:00

Marfa, I completely agree. And I might private message you for a few of those recipes! :)

Lisa, I LOVE that quote! What a great way to put it!

Joseph, Yes, that is the ideal situation. What I was referring to in my post was the podcast I listened to that stated you couldn't go to a meal and not eat the food they prepared (she was referring to events that only offered non-lenten choices).

So what I meant was, if that is the case why not offer to bring something ourselves. So your question was not ignorant at all, I think that eating what we're able to eat without breaking the fast and not making a "deal" out of it, is by far the best option. :)

Sylvia, thank you, now it's much better. Josep...

2011-11-27T01:03:51.666-05:00

Sylvia, thank you, now it's much better.
Joseph B, I didn't see the ideea of letting the host know we are fasting. Just bring a lenten dish(if it's a party where everybody brings something, to make the job easier for the host), without giving too many explanations.you don't say: look, I brought this salad because is lenten and I fast, you say: I brought this salad because it's one of my favourites. Sorry my English is very poor and fail to express the idea that I have. I hope you can understand

Thank you for voicing sobriety. Americans ("...

2011-11-26T17:25:27.938-05:00

Thank you for voicing sobriety. Americans ("craddle" Orthodox or converts) are not the only ones facing a National holiday in the middle of a fast. Greeks celebrate National Independence Day the same day as Annunciation. Those on the new calendar observe it on March 25, but old calendarists don't celebrate until April 7 (which is the equivalent of March 25). In any of those instances, it is often found that the important day of National Liberation falls during Lent! The usual meal is lamb, but if it's during Lent, only fish is allowed. I totally agree that we shouldn't put civil holidays over Church Feasts/Fasts. If we BELIEVE in the right faith, we must ACT in the right faith also. I will quote a Greek bishop I heard at a Church Conference: "Orthodoxy is like the hokey pokey. You're either IN or OUT. And that's what is all about." May God bless us all, that we may live a pleasing life to Him.

I whole-heartedly agree that the tone of the bulle...

2011-11-26T12:49:12.570-05:00

I whole-heartedly agree that the tone of the bulletin was misguided.

My question centers around your statement to let the host of the Thanksgiving gathering know that you are fasting, and would bring a lenten dish, etc. Aren't we supposed to fast in secret (to the non-Orthodox?) At that point, even if our heart is not in a prideful place, does this not make it into a "deal?" I think it would be much more low-key to simply show up, eat all the fixings, ignore the meat, and claim a little upset stomach to any one rude enought to inquire as to what's on your plate.

I am newly Chrismated, so I am still learning, so forgive my question if it is ignorant!

You are so right, we have time to prepare, and it&...

2011-11-26T11:07:42.958-05:00

You are so right, we have time to prepare, and it's really about giving thanks to God...there are so many fasting foods we can eat! Squash, homemade rosemary bread, corn, apple pie, etc.
And it's not just Thanksgiving, I know we are invited to many Christmas gatherings and parties with friends who are not Orthodox, but we make sure to offer to bring a dish that is lenten (one of our favorites is vegetable sushi, with carrots, avocado & rice inside, wrapped up in seaweed). Thanksgiving 2013 for those of us on the old calendar is a fast-day.

Thanks guys, I'm glad to see so many do try to...

2011-11-26T09:35:45.669-05:00

Thanks guys, I'm glad to see so many do try to keep the fast.

Maria, I love that story about St. John of Kronstadt! :)

Icoane, I changed the font! Thanks for letting me know!

A blessed Nativity fast to all of you!! <3

I like very much what you say, but it was hard for...

2011-11-26T03:26:04.285-05:00

I like very much what you say, but it was hard for me to read, the letters ar so small and difficult to read

It's a difficult topic. You dealt with it very...

2011-11-26T02:23:40.571-05:00

It's a difficult topic. You dealt with it very well. I couldn't agree more with you.

As we say in Greek " Τέλειο", Perfect! G...

2011-11-26T01:02:06.354-05:00

As we say in Greek " Τέλειο", Perfect! God bless you and your family dear Sylvia!!!